124: The Citrix Session: The right start to architecting an efficient DaaS environment

Jan 24, 2023

Organizations running VDI must always keep front of mind multiple moving parts including many backend systems, dependencies on different services, coordination with multiple teams, and multi-fold expectations from stakeholders. Managing these elements can take away from the primary goal of organizations to create seamless and high-performance hybrid-work environments. How can we make our businesses as productive and efficient as possible? A purpose-built, DaaS architecture that fits the needs of business and technology could be the answer.

Host: Andy Whiteside
Co-Host: Bill Sutton
Co-Host: Geremy Meyers

WEBVTT

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Andy Whiteside: Hello, everyone! Welcome to episode 124 of the Citrix session. I’m your host Andy White side 124 guys that’s a lot of numbers. We have to apologize. We’ve been mi a for a while since, like mid December life happens right?

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gmeyers@tibco.com: What does happen?

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Bill Sutton: Yes, it is.

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Andy Whiteside: That was the voice of Jeremy Myers. Jeremy, how’s it going?

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gmeyers@tibco.com: I’m doing excellent. I’m doing excellent. It’s been a fun. Christmas fun Kick off to the year it’s been exciting.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Here we are.

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Andy Whiteside: So guess what? I missed everything you just said, because i’m dumb enough to change my audio devices right in the middle of a podcast.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Well, I don’t want to overse what I just said. I just basically said it’s been busy. We’ve been good. It’s been a over the year.

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Andy Whiteside: Tell us what your new role is in at Cloud Software Group.

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Andy Whiteside: which is

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Andy Whiteside: the new company.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: It is. It is the new company. So

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gmeyers@tibco.com: So I have a I have a similar role. So first and foremost email and right cloud software group. In fact, Andy, i’m gonna need you to send the invite for the podcast now to a new email address. So it’s actually cloud.com. In fact, looking back.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: that might be the only thing that remains of that acquisition a few years ago. I don’t know, if you remember. But we acquired the software.

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Andy Whiteside: That was. It was a cloud platform. Do you remember this. Yeah, yeah. So we ended up. We were spinning that off several years ago. And the one thing that wasn’t a bad idea, it’s just it’s a great idea. It’s just there. There’s a lot of things to execute, and that the cloud has happened in the in the architecture behind it’s happened. And yeah, it.

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Andy Whiteside: But the cloud.com came out of it that that could be the most valuable thing 20 years from now

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gmeyers@tibco.com: that I mean, that is usually what I leave presentations off with. I’m like, hey? Listen. So, my I’m: so into a cloud.com

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Yeah, we somehow finagled that domain name right? Which is pretty awesome. But but yeah, so we’re we’re cloud software group now, and I manage a team of partner technical strategies. So that is a fancy way of saying, Partner sales, engineers essentially, and we work directly with partners like integrra.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: not just sort of educating them. Let them know what’s new, but getting very involved in their opportunity. So we are less customer focused, or at least engaged, I guess, I should say.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: than in the past, and our big focus is really working directly with this attackers to just be successful. That’s where our goal is, you know we’re successful if they’re successful. So that’s what Zintegra was built to be is this conduit between the customer and the vendor? But that doesn’t mean you’re like

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Andy Whiteside: not gonna talk to the customers. You can talk to us like us, and you were gonna talk to customers

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Andy Whiteside: at the end of the day. It’s a scalable better approach. In fact, the blog we’re going to talk about today came from another partner that is helping customers solve problems with Citrix and let’s talk about it right. It’s it’s okay. It’s it’s all ships rise this thing over this desktop is a service world.

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Andy Whiteside: It’s it, it hasn’t hit its market. It’s it’s it’s got a lot of legs left on it to get to where it should go.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Yeah, no, I totally agree, in fact. So I’ve got my first call this afternoon with, you know one of the aes that is integr. And we’re gonna talk about adaptive off, and that as premium and kind of what that looks like for a customer. And you know, eventually we’ll turn that into some kind of demo. Actually. So

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Andy Whiteside: I I love that. That was great. Actually, you said that. And you didn’t, and you didn’t say Vdi. I love the fact. You didn’t say Vdi, because, you know, digital workspace is part of a current and future and ongoing digital transformation. I mean, we could be a 140 years old. Still, talking about this thing.

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Andy Whiteside: It it never ends. We probably will.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Yes, we will guarantee as a guy who’s turning 50 in a couple of months.

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Andy Whiteside: Well, I’ll, i’ll you. There’ll be a party i’m gonna to my own party. I started planning. Yes, Bill Sutton.

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Andy Whiteside: what’s been going on since mid December.

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Bill Sutton: Oh, you know life holidays, trips

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Bill Sutton: kick off all good.

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Andy Whiteside: It’s. It’s hard to believe

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Andy Whiteside: I know it is really is. I i’m going to go back and check we did. That was with Chris Fleck was our last one. I think I can’t believe that was a month ago.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: It. Was it, by the way, did he show up? Was he a part of kick off when you 2 2 2 weeks ago, was it? Oh, I I thought to Chris this morning. And yeah, he showed up, and it was great to have his.

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Andy Whiteside: you know legacy and his awareness of what’s kind of happened, and what’s coming back around on the citric side, how they’re going to lead with, you know, technology and solving problems and partner with partners. And then we’re also fortunate enough to have Mark Templeton come to kind of help us close the sessions out, and you know him

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Andy Whiteside: being part of us, and what we’re doing, and part of you know, our our our guiding, shining light in the beginning, and even today, around what it means to be able to add value and be successful while still being humble and having a purpose. It was awesome.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: You know. I love Chris Black, and I love kind of what he brings to the table. It reminds me of a synergy we did a few years ago where it was we had just acquired Octo Blue. I don’t know. If you guys remember that that company. But it was very much.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know, if this than that kind of workflow driven, which maybe a little bit of ahead of its time.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know, based on what we’re doing. But the idea is, you know you walked into a room you had Alexa sitting there, and you would say, hey, I like to start my meeting, and it would kick a workflow off. It would start, you know, with that at the time gotomeeting that it would say, hey, we’ this recording, hey, Alexa, Save this recording, or whatever

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gmeyers@tibco.com: on the back end, it will go through and grab something and the recording, dump it to share file, send a link out to everyone that was in the me. It was just like the forward thinking kind of stuff.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: You didn’t know that’s what a workspace look like. And to be honest, you know, we spit all things. Something stuck. Some things didn’t. I think that’s just kind of what you try when you’re trying to innovate. But, man, you know, I just some of the stuff that that guys brought to Citric over the years has been pretty amazing. The X one mouse, if you remember that, of course

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know the the raspberry pi was kind of, I think his brainchild originally so

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gmeyers@tibco.com: lots of good things.

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Andy Whiteside: Yeah, and it could be more of that, you know, applying tech, and some of it won’t work.

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Andy Whiteside: But then there’s a lot of applying concepts to the existing technologies within those technologies and things that may or may not hit a home run, but it won’t. Be like, you know, trying to reinvent the wheel. It’ll be applying

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Andy Whiteside: to the D and digital workspace world things that are the obvious. No brain or next next things in the fold.

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Andy Whiteside: All right. So, Jeremy, you pick today’s blog, and based on what’s here in the opening paragraphs, 2 of them: what is this? And and why does it matter? Well, let me read the title, the the right start to architecting and efficient dazz desktop as a service environment, and this is by appeal, seeing so we believe to be a

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Andy Whiteside: to be a architect at we pro

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Andy Whiteside: we pro. Why pro how you want to say oh, he does. In fact, I guess it’s right here in the in the second pair got people. He’s already within their practice, actually within the practice. So why did you pick this one? Why, why do you think we should be talking about this one today.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know. So it covers a lot of just really Architecture thought questions. You should be asking yourself so. I mean, I listen. I’ve been a lot of pocs over the years, and you know I can be. I can’t tell you how many times. It’s it’s turned into. Let’s just jump right in and start building things which, by the way, I love talking me wrong. I love building technology. I love spinning up

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gmeyers@tibco.com: things in azure all these different locations and really making the technology work. But when you’re

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gmeyers@tibco.com: designing a production ready environment, I mean, there’s some things that you need to consider.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: and this article really hits some of those those bubbles on what you should be thinking through if you’re not doing already in any of your projects. So you know, I thought this resonated, you know. Obviously, this is something that

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know probably hits the blogs, and once a year, maybe once every couple of years, and it’s worth revisiting

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it

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Andy Whiteside: always worth discussing.

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Andy Whiteside: and

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Andy Whiteside: I can’t begin to take. I’ here. I’ll do this real quick, and I think Bill would agree. This

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Andy Whiteside: Citrix consulting

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Andy Whiteside: did a major favor for all of us by coming up with these methodologies back in the day, and Bill and I use those same methodologies

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Bill Sutton: around how to architect solutions, and how to do the discovery and stuff in all of our projects. We, the what was that class? What was the certification we got? It was, think, like a consultant or or consulting services. I forget the name of it, but it was the the online course that Citrix offered as part of the

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Bill Sutton: the part of the Citric Service or Citrix

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Bill Sutton: Provider program as part of Ccs.

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Yeah.

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Bill Sutton: I think it was like a consultant, or act and think like a consultant or something like that. And then there was another course on on consulting methodologies.

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Andy Whiteside: Yeah, I to this day, and I was just a little little book like the little exam crammed book I had for that it was so succinct about how it tried to help you understand the mindset of a a consultant, and making sure you went through the proper phases, even though, like Jeremy, thought about you, just you just can’t wait to get in and start implementing stuff

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Andy Whiteside: that that never goes right. I I put to get I I I I put up closet doors yesterday, and I I drill 2 holes in my fingers. That’s one of my problems. I drilled all the way through to my hand twice, and and I also didn’t look at the instructions, and didn’t follow the instructions in the right order, and I made 2 major mistakes. It required putty and paint

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Andy Whiteside: to kind of hide my mistakes, but that all that applies, no matter what you’re doing in life. I I so hope that I can get my kids to

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Andy Whiteside: go through something like that at some point and use that for

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Andy Whiteside: well, their job as well as even personal stuff.

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Andy Whiteside: Okay, let’s we’re gonna never get through this we don’t have funnel forces to. The first section is a well-defined assessment of requirements. Now, this is Project Pilot Poc Pov. No matter what you’re doing, finding out what the customer.

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Andy Whiteside: what the the end, user the consumer, maybe not the end, user but maybe the will definitely the end. User but the people in the middle as well. You know what they’re trying to cover, you know, Bill, this is this is your baby. This is your area. You want to run through the first one.

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Bill Sutton: Yeah. First. What I would do is go back slightly to the, to the first paragraph and the last sentence there is really key. T. Indicates at all a purpose built as architecture that fits the needs of a business. And technology is the answer. And what I mean by purpose built is.

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Bill Sutton: you know it. This this is not a one. Size fits all proposition. In 95% of the cases we it needs to be to some degree customize, and part of

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Bill Sutton: a part of getting to

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Bill Sutton: to that customization is having adequate discovery, slash assessment.

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Bill Sutton: and that’s what this first section covers. And this is it’s kind of interesting. And looking at looking through this when we selected it. That it really is, is aligned very closely with what we do on the majority of our implementation projects. At Z Integrra we we follow a methodology that was championed by Citrix that essentially involves an assessment slash discovery

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Bill Sutton: up front.

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Andy Whiteside: and we do things like you know what this says. The first one here is users. So you you brought them up, maybe maybe think, and I want to bring this up real quick. Sure, would you? Okay, true or false? Most of our customers, physical desktops environments happened organically, or they were well thought out

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Andy Whiteside: organically, organically, right. And so the challenge here is, as we start to move this stuff into a deliver as a service.

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Andy Whiteside: We ain’t got time to worry about. We don’t have time for organic to happen, right. We we gotta hit it pretty close the first time or the second time, or the third time. We don’t have 30 years of evolution, you know most of your customers desktop solutions are 20 plus years of evolving organically.

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Andy Whiteside: We don’t have time to do that when we’re doing to do it as a service. Right?

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Bill Sutton: We have to have. We have to make time.

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Bill Sutton: but we don’t have time for it to happen organically. We don’t have time for that, for organically we have to. We have to. We have to plan for it. We have to design it properly.

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Andy Whiteside: and and most of my seniors want to talk to executives. They just it’s just desktops. Guys just make it happen like No, no, it’s not just desktops. It’s as a service delivered, you know, centralized app computing, and World Ak: digital workspace, which happens to be the desktop. You can’t afford to get it wrong because it once we get one or bad experience, one or 2 bad experiences.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: they’ll never let us try this again. That’s good. It’s like cars. I mean, you don’t show up at a dealership and go. Hey? It’s just cars. You’ll just pick one and go. You go. No, listen. I’m a mom. I’ve got 3 kids, you know. Let’s let’s talk through what my requirements are right. I might be single with plenty of cash to burn, hey? That’s a different. That’s a different scenario, right? You gotta kind of understand.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: You know where that end user is coming from, and that’s essentially what we’re doing here. We’re really just trying to understand what your requirements are, I can tell you. My wife wants 14 Cup holders. Why? Because we have 4 kids, and we need 14 cup holders is how it works, and you can’t have a volvo if you want big cuppers.

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Andy Whiteside: All those don’t have Cup holders. But Toyota Highlanders do. That’s why I have a toy to Highlanders.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: right? But you know, Listen, my daughter’s 13. She’s gonna be 1617 here a few years, and you know maybe in 4 or 5 years. Safety is a bigger concern, and and then maybe it’s a volvo.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: But I don’t know she’s she’s a teenager. She’s in the ball, though, so I wanna i’ll make this super quick. One of our business partners in the Smb joint venture.

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Andy Whiteside: Mark Vincent, he’s talking about. He’s got kids that range from almost 30 down to 15 or 16, and his oldest kids drove like muscle cars with manual transmissions. His youngest kid. He he says he’ll! He’ll never have a gas combustion car

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Andy Whiteside: like he’s it’s all electric. He’ll never know anything different.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: You might be right. Actually. You might be right. First of all, he’s not driving a a manual because it’s hard to find. And then, secondly, you know, by the time he’s buying his first car, I can promise you it’ll probably be electric.

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Andy Whiteside: Yeah, what you are. You both like? It’s electric, and you’ll never drive. Probably gas, and it’s not interest.

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Andy Whiteside: Okay, Bill, I’m: sorry I took you off topic. One of the objectives is to understand the who

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Bill Sutton: the users, the people that are gonna use this solution. They and and some of the factors here are. They’re listed here, but you know the condition of the network, whether they’re whether they’re in an office all day long, working on the same device versus roaming

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Bill Sutton: the customization. Things like profiles and policies need to be considered as well as the nature of the user and you know, Citrix, I think, used to put them, and probably still does, into categories under the like. You know, knowledge, work, or task worker power, user and that still applies. But that’s an important distinction to make when you’re assessing

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Bill Sutton: the user requirements of of a gas solution

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Andy Whiteside: I I feel like it’s 1999 all over. Again. I mean that that Hasn’t changed. That has not changed now. Yeah, it’s that’s why we call it in user. Computing our our whole entire job, and it is to help users get their job done.

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Bill Sutton: That’s right. So we should probably include them in what we’re doing on the front side. Not just at the end result absolutely, absolutely. And obviously the next one application. Landscape, Who’s who are the owners of the apps? They are. They’re the ones that are gonna have to. They They need to be considered because they’re the ones that are likely going to have to get them installed and configured

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Bill Sutton: in this on this net new environment where they’re hosted. Certainly the classification of the apps, and and who who gets access to them is critical. Obviously, in designing your your your group

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Bill Sutton: permission structure such that you’re not. You’re not throwing everybody into one group for and then, or having, or assigning individual users to applications, you create a group big space structure where you add the user to the group, and then the group gets add to the app. All of those are considerations when it comes to the application landscape

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Bill Sutton: as well as obviously support for

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Bill Sutton: the operating systems you’re going to deliver.

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Andy Whiteside: Obviously, well in the operating systems that first app you got to think about that’s going to get you to all the other apps in the middle, where, as well as the endpoint, you know, at some point these all become Sas apps. And why are we talking about desktops? We just need a digital workspace with a with a browser of some type, and that becomes our. You know our conduit. We don’t need a desktop anymore. But, Jeremy, any thoughts on these first 2,

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you know so

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gmeyers@tibco.com: good

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gmeyers@tibco.com: from a user perspective, you know, I think the one I’ve seen a lot more recently that I have in the past is certainly geographical distribution. Maybe 3 years ago we thought about just regional offices. But now it’s.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know folks are working from home. They’re working, you know, hybrid and I don’t mean to sales people, but just regular Joe’s who do any sort of job in an organization. So you have to consider that, you know, and usually what that means is you gotta consider the network conditions as well. You know, I think we’ve always talked about personalization, and I get all that. But

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gmeyers@tibco.com: and it’s interesting. The number of conversations I’ve gotten into just around where my user said. You know what we can inspect out of the network. It’s always been a thing, but it’s really just become more recently.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: But you know in some cases the application landscape drives that as well. So I mean, if you you have very graphically intense applications that is going to impact your user experience, you know. So now you might want to deliver C. But you might not be doing it to certain locations. You’ve got to have

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gmeyers@tibco.com: the band with the supporter, but you wouldn’t know that unless you went through this exercise.

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Andy Whiteside: and 5 communication apps i’m. I’m embarrassed. I’m not using my virtual desktop right now, but I have in the past, and that’s important which it is to almost everybody these days, and that’s gotta be one of the apps. You talk about.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: It’s like it’s got to be one of the biggest ones these days, in fact. So, teams zoom you know, Webex, or 3 of the ones that pop up all the time, and those get a little bit easy just from a deployment perspective, because there’s special plugins for them. But it’s not unusual for us to get asked about, you know. Just a third party App. I’ve never heard of that, as you see.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: And so how do you factor that in it’s important to know that going up front, because that might.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know that might define things like roaming your static. It might define. You know how much resource you you can actually give a virtual desktop. It’s very interesting. The other thing I say about the application. Landscape is in a lot of cases you talked about

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gmeyers@tibco.com: physical desktops, and how organically they’ve grown, and how all the apps, just any app you can think of ends up on a physical desktop when you’re in that scenario of moving that into a daz environment. I say des because some of these are going to be Sas, of course, but moving into a dazz environment, a lot of organizations. Look at that opportunity to rationalize the apps.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: So you guys can both remember back in the day when you would just get a list of apps that would hit your desktop. It included 14 versions of adobe acrobat.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: and for whatever reason the C. You writing software. They had to be in the virtual desktop. You go. What’s the use case for that? Well, not really. It was just a dump from some tool on the endpoint. I get that. But you know a lot of organizations. They take this opportunity to actually rationalize the apps that need to go in this jazz environment. So

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know, the first 2 are huge in terms of just defining what you’re delivering as a service.

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Yeah.

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Andy Whiteside: and so many things I would love to talk about, but I’m I’m gonna keep us moving on

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Andy Whiteside: because we’ll never get there. But I will say this Bill and I just got out of our management meeting every Monday morning. I think we spent 20 min talking about endpoints that we wanted to, and we we do this stuff for a living, and we use digital workspaces. Yet we had to spend 2030 min on Today’s call figured out which laptop models we were going to buy Bill, go and hit this next one.

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Bill Sutton: Yeah, I mean, that’s true. And you know, endpoint types is another another objective that that you need to consider. And obviously, you know, the operating system is a big part of that. But form factors as well, I mean you could you, whether you’re talking about. You know a tablet, or a.

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Bill Sutton: or a a laptop, or a physical desktop that that’s being used today. But you know this kind of it kind of dovetails into the other 2 the the location of your users into a, to a.

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Bill Sutton: to a larger degree what Jeremy was bringing up, which is the concept of the application landscape do we need to? We need to provide these users that have a windows or a Mac device? Do they need a desktop delivered to them, or do they just need apps delivered to them, or Sas apps delivered to them? Certainly understanding the endpoint type, as in conjunction with the other 2 items helps drive that the answer to those questions.

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Yeah.

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Andy Whiteside: So, Bill, the next one on the list is printing, or printer and other peripheral requirements. They They told me 10 years ago people wouldn’t be printing by now. Are you telling people stuff to print? People still have to print? Yes, they do. That’s a that’s a key item. We we have that in our sales specifically called out.

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Bill Sutton: but the other, the other peripherals are probably becoming more. They are. They’re not less important, but they’re certainly equally as important things like Webcams microphones in in consideration of what was our said earlier around. You know, around teams, you, you know unified communication applications like teams or

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Bill Sutton: zoom, or webex, etc. Obviously those those devices. And if you start looking at an industry where it says here, industry, specific hardware, like health care. Then you’re looking at things like pinpads, signature pads.

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Bill Sutton: you know. Maybe other types of medical devices that send telemetry somewhere. Maybe those need to be connected to a desktop. Maybe they need to be on a physical desktop, this specialize or dedicated to them the but those are things that all need to be considered as part of designing a solution for your customer

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Andy Whiteside: and Jeremy anything this last 2 that you want to highlight.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Well, first of all I want to ask a question. I see 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 different endpoint types, andy windows. Mac OS, Ios Android Linux Chrome. OS. How many of those do you own and take it with?

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Andy Whiteside: Well, I mean as we’re going through this, I literally had to go around and touch this, some of them in my office, because it’s time for them to get updated. My My Chrome OS. Is right here. My windows is right here. It also boots into a Linux OS. I’ve got an ideal

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Andy Whiteside: Lg: all in one behind me, I mean, I got 4 of them plus a phone

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Andy Whiteside: as i’m seeing here right now.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Yeah, you know, I and I think as a

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gmeyers@tibco.com: as an it professional, someone who’s in the Euc space and not you, specifically. But just anyone in this space. I mean, I think you gotta.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: You got to own all these things, and you got to test and tinker with them because you’re not going to know what they’re capable of. I can just tell you, coming from a.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: You know sales engineering perspective, the questions i’ll get from customers saying, hey, can I do this thing? Can I do this? What do you do with Mac OS and this scenario I like? I no idea. Let me pull the Macbook out. Let’s give it a go, because nothing surprises me anymore. You know, I thought peripheral requirements Were kind of gonna go away because printing seem to be the biggest one.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: As it turns out, it seems like it’s it’s it’s all the multimedia stuff like you mentioned, Bill, you know. Can I get this 4 K camera that does not ship with my laptop, but it’s a logitech, you know, specifically to do stuff like this. Can I get that remote it in

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gmeyers@tibco.com: as a peripheral same thing for this high and boom mic that decided to get over code right? So

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know it’s pretty important to understand exactly what the endpoints are capable of, because the thing you’ll find is, and this is specific to Citrix is, you know we make a workspace app for everything, but you gotta understand what is supported as well. So, even though you want to do.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know, maybe you know, be video redirection like you do on windows, but on Chrome. OS, you can understand. It works differently. So you got to understand what those limitations may or may not be.

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Andy Whiteside: But let’s stop and highlight that the standardizations happening has happened. Citrix has all the workspace as well. They mostly do the same things, if capable of the endpoints capable, and we’ve standardized on USB. Thankfully on a lot of things, and that this world that we’re talking about right now

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Andy Whiteside: is so much better than it was in the mid 2 thousands where it was a crap shoot whether things would work or not. I think things are likely to work now, and that’s the Citrix has been the leader in that space, and still is by far the the leader. And making sure that stuff you need, Mr. Implementation Guy, Mr. Integrator.

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Andy Whiteside: works more than what.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: more than likely

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Andy Whiteside: I, Bill, high availability concerns my goodness, how many times we we talk about this on the podcast and other things in the last 2 years. We’ve talked about it a lot, and we hear it a lot from customers.

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Bill Sutton: You know the the the ability to stay online in the event of an event.

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Bill Sutton: The the challenge we run into here is a lot of customers want. This one want disaster, recovery.

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Bill Sutton: and they’ll say, I want to make sure that I develop or I. I build this environment sufficient so that I’ve got I I’ve got Dr. And B. Cp. Built in business continuity planning built in from a the standpoint of my my

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Bill Sutton: by Vdi environment. If that’s what they’re building, the challenge we run into is a lot of times. They will build it in the Dr. Facility. But there’s nothing else there except maybe a domain controller. So you need. Customers need to consider, and part of this exercise you need to consider. Okay, You want to build Dr: what do you have in Dr. What do you really need in Dr. Do you need

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Bill Sutton: like, for, like the the degraded environment, these are all considerations that come up. And and then, obviously, when you’re dealing with the cloud, you’re no longer really having to worry about the infrastructure components. The ability to deliver Dr. Is much simpler. It’s literally in the citrix world, delivering some cloud connectors at each location

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Bill Sutton: and then orchestrating the connections to those through the Cloud Control plan. But fundamentally it comes down to

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Bill Sutton: What are you? What do you want to deliver?

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Bill Sutton: How much. How how much degraded, if any. Do you want a Dr. Situation to be? And what do you already have in Dr. That need? What do you need in Dr. Or what do you already have there that can’t, or other than your virtual desktops? Because I give you a virtual desktop. And Dr. So, if you have a a disaster event, you can connect to your desktop. But if there’s no

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Bill Sutton: no data or no application, you know things that going on there. Then I haven’t really done much for you.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Yeah, I mean, I like to say that Citrix is kind of the easy part you guys can tell me if i’m wrong. But citrix is kind of the easy part right, like spinning up desktops in a in a second location, in case of a disaster

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gmeyers@tibco.com: is not hard, but that back in infrastructure I mean how you replicating your databases and all the

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you. Just think of a 3 tier environment like what that looks like how you get that over to your your second location. You always have to define what’s a disaster like? What are you planning for?

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Bill Sutton: Well, that’s that kind of goes back to the whole. To To really the overarching element is what is the overall objective of what the customers trying to accomplish here in in considering or implementing a solution like this, and certainly understanding what Dr. Means to them and what their expectations are, is equally as important.

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Andy Whiteside: So this to me goes back to the previous conversation around Peripherals, and that was a you know, 2,000 generation Conversation now high availability, Jeremy, your comment was, you tell me if you’re we’re wrong. We we were supposed to tell you. If you’re wrong, Citrix is the easy part. Well, it is today

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Andy Whiteside: the platform as a service model 5 years ago, and even in some of our clients who haven’t adopted platform as a service, it’s still a hard conversation. But if you adopt platform or service couple of connectors? Maybe maybe not even that. Citrix is the easy part

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Bill Sutton: it absolutely is today. It. It is very easy.

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Yep.

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Bill Sutton: The dance model

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Andy Whiteside: this next one. I think we’ll just skip it right security. Nobody cares right. It’s made up just for budget. That’s all.

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Andy Whiteside: Talk to. People sometimes argue with people weekly.

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Andy Whiteside: I’m a desktop as a service guy. I’m a digital workspace guy I believe security starts with a non- persistent delivered compute environment a desktop, or Apps or sas with analytics.

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Andy Whiteside: That’s where security starts for me. You know i’m not monitoring and thread analysis and all that. That’s important. Absolutely important. But if you tell me i’d reboot my desktop back to a gold image every time, and whatever bad stuff I might have got on, it is now gone.

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Andy Whiteside: That’s where I believe it starts, and we have multiple customers. We’ve gone in and and looked at their environment. Posts ran somewhere, and the only thing left standing was the non persistent desktop environment.

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Andy Whiteside: No.

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Bill Sutton: absolutely right. The other thing I would add to that is a secure browser

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Bill Sutton: is a a browser that that can be centrally managed. Whether the device is essentially managed or not, that the users must use to access, secure, or line of business. Saas based apps. That’s a another consideration. When you start

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Bill Sutton: driving around security, I mean. Obviously, they’ve named a lot of item and see items here like Pci hipaa, high tech, and so forth. Those are all things that need to be considered. But you need to understand which ones

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Bill Sutton: apply, and those that don’t apply to the individual customer at at issue here, and a lot of that is just gonna be involved is just going to involve discussing with their security team and other folks in the organization to to address those those needs.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Yeah, I mean, I think they’re They’re kind of 2 buckets here, right? So there there is the bucket of compliance. Right? So there’s things that you must do on or turn off or manage, because you in a certain industry, and you’re

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know you’re regulated by certain. You know security regulations here. Right so. Pci hipa. You know those are health care, you know credit, card transaction things like that. So that’s one aspect of it, and the second aspect of it is just risk to the business right? I mean. No one wants to go by antivirus, but they buy it because it reduces

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gmeyers@tibco.com: that risk footprint to the business. And so you know, just understanding what that risk is, because you can’t turn it all on. There’s not enough budget to turn everything on but understanding what the risk is getting in front of the right teams. You know, within the organization to understand that.

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you know. Luckily

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gmeyers@tibco.com: there’s a lot of knobs and switches within Citrix to cover a lot of bases, but we don’t cover everything, so you can also need to understand how what we do

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gmeyers@tibco.com: layers in with the rest of your security strategy. And so that’s a conversation that

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gmeyers@tibco.com: we’ve had to have a lot more over the past 2 or 3 years, especially as everything has gone remote. But it’s a

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gmeyers@tibco.com: it’s a huge overarching, you know, governance to anything that you put in place for your end. Users?

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Yeah.

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Andy Whiteside: And and at the end of the day it’s not If it’s when

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Andy Whiteside: you need to make sure you can prove to the people that are supposed to pay you the money back

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Andy Whiteside: that you did all the the appropriate things you could have done

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gmeyers@tibco.com: to make sure you prevented this.

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Bill Sutton: Yeah, I I don’t one thing to add here, though, is I don’t know how many times we’ve run. We’ve run into situations where the customer. We’re talking about security. Oh, we have any virus on our desktops. We want to put that in Vdi, or we have this Edr application in our desktop. So we want to put that in Vdi. Well.

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Bill Sutton: there’s a lot of considerations that you need to take into account here when you start putting something like that in in. If you’re delivering a desktop, then then those things can have an impact on the performance of that desktop. We need to secure it.

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Bill Sutton: and maybe that the tool that they’ve been using for 20 years is not the right tool to meet the security needs in Vdi. I mean some cases they are. But these are considerations that need to be talked, talk through with the client and the consultant, to come to some sort of agreement on the approach that needs to be taken to address the the risk.

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No.

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Andy Whiteside: So, Jeremy, i’m gonna give you the last one. But before you attack it i’m gonna change what it says

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Andy Whiteside: When I talk to a company about this one, I say it this way, current and future business expectations, and i’m really bullish on adding the future. What in there? Because you don’t know what you don’t know. Let’s build something that might be conducive for what’s coming. Go ahead.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: What? So what what we call this layer 8. So if we’re talking about that with I model, you get later. 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 7, and this is layer 8, you know. Sometimes These are a political, you know, at the end of the day a lot of business decisions drive technology right? So

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gmeyers@tibco.com: I mean, Des is cool and everything. But

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know, what does that give you? And I think you’ve got to understand that I mean the reason you might be doing this is strictly security, you know, so you might have some budget. But what might be driving this is a security, or it could be You’re trying to reduce some spend somehow, right, whatever that looks like. So someone might have decided

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gmeyers@tibco.com: that I can do as as a service and reduce

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gmeyers@tibco.com: my spend somehow. You know, I think this is where you need to understand. All right, do I have to consider cost per user? For a desktop?

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gmeyers@tibco.com: You know you start thinking that from different perspective. And then other times it’s just.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know. There’s been a decision made. Andy has seen this billison that, seeing this as we are going to the cloud.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: So there’s been some strategic. We’re going to the cloud, damn it! And so we are going to the cloud, and you know whether or not it makes sense from a cost or technology perspective. You know, someone within the business has said, this is what we’re doing.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: and so you have to consider that as well. So, having said all that, you have to consider things that Aren’t technology related, driving what your project is doing, and it’s important to understand that, because then this is what this is. What gets the budget. Is this piece right here? Whatever is you trying to do? How about mergers and acquisitions. We got customers who have built themselves so they could be acquired, using the technology to make that easier and more likely and more lucrative. At the same time we have companies that do the acquiring that’s building their platform so they can acquire

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companies.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Yup!

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Bill Sutton: That’s right. I I I don’t think this this list was necessarily in order. But I think, generally speaking, this expectation section would be the first thing that I would. The first part of the discussion I would have with a customer, in fact, in our typical methodology, this

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Bill Sutton: this section around understanding business needs and requirements, etc. stakeholders. That’s typically first.

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Bill Sutton: since it drives a lot of what comes after.

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Yeah.

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Andy Whiteside: So I will highlight something for this. This needs to be done

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Andy Whiteside: in a meaningful way. It needs to be documented. It needs to be signed off on by the company you’re or whoever you’re doing, the project for before you move in. If you just make the assumptions that you got it right without reviewing it with them and having them sign off. There’s really no accountability, and chances are you missed

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Andy Whiteside: something, if not a lot.

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Bill Sutton: That’s absolutely right. And this is this is why we produce a design. I I kind of liken this. I think this is an app analogy. But I kind of like in this to to building your own Custom House, or having a build or build your own custom house. You have someone come in and put together a blueprint right kind of lays out what? What? What kind of wind is you’re gonna have, what kind of countertops, what what your appliance is going to be, etc. You don’t just tell a guy I want you to build me a house now, and he just goes in and builds it to his own desire, his own likes. You want it built to customize

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Bill Sutton: to your requirements. And and this how you do that is typically some sort of a iterative process. You go through to get to the point where you produce something that drives that, and that’s what we’re talking about. Here is documenting, documenting all of this such that when it the actual environment is built it’s built according to something we all agree on.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: So there’s there’s there’s 2 kinds of pocs that I have done in the past. The first one has been

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Let’s build it and see who comes.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: and I can. I can promise you that those are really successful. So usually when we’re talking with an organization, and they’re interested in sort of testing out

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gmeyers@tibco.com: mit ctl and a solution. You know we go through this list here to really understand just how vetted out this project is, you know. Have you defined some of these use cases. Do you understand really what we’re building for 150?

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gmeyers@tibco.com: And if you can’t answer a lot of these questions, you know, we’ll we’ll kind of hold off doing any sort of proof for pilot, because it’s typically not worth anyone’s time yet

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gmeyers@tibco.com: to start standing things up. So you know we’ll wait and go. Hey, let’s start vetting some of these pieces out, and maybe 50 of the time we do 50 of the time we don’t. But ultimately, once you’ve understand what you’re building for. The process goes so much smoother because you know exactly what you’re designing for and what you’re trying to build.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: And here’s the truth of all that you’re still going to get it wrong.

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Andy Whiteside: But it won’t be because you didn’t do stuff to kind of get aligned on the front end you hopefully. You didn’t get it as wrong as you would have, and you still could.

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Andy Whiteside: But we don’t need to hold ourselves accountable for doing the best we can. If we have to reboot, we reboot.

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Bill Sutton: and sometimes that happens, and you document it, and you move You move in the the new direction based on what you discovered during the process. That’s I don’t think that’s unusual, and it’s expected to. They point to Andy’s point that we will get some of it wrong.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Yep.

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Andy Whiteside: All right, Jeremy. Diligent analysis of meaningful insights. That’s consulting jargon, and I don’t know what it means. What I mean.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: So here’s what I would say is, you put a solution in place like, how do you define success like? How do you know this is successful? And it was useful, and you’re getting out of it what you expect. You know you gotta build in

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gmeyers@tibco.com: metrics and insight into your solution to gather that data and put that into, you know folks can help make that decision. So, for instance, you put these desktops out. You were building for a disaster recovery strategy. Now, did you test it at all? Do you know how that works, or it where you built? Did you build this to help improve the end? User Experience

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gmeyers@tibco.com: like what metrics are you gathering

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gmeyers@tibco.com: to be able to find that it’s better or worse than it was right? Or better yet, how how do you gather the insight, so you can continually iterate and make it better. Right? So if you understand that

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know your first version of this was was okay, but it could perform better, you know. Maybe you’ve overloaded your machines, you know, being able to grab those metrics. You can feed that back in and go. Hey? You know what we need less

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gmeyers@tibco.com: people per host, or you know, maybe we need to resize the instance that we had in our cloud. Whatever you know, this has to be iterative. You don’t put Dazz out there, and then just walk away. You have to continually, you know. Take a look at it, understand it. You know. How is it performing based on what you were trying to do

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gmeyers@tibco.com: and continually improve?

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gmeyers@tibco.com: That’s a life lesson that’s what just happened.

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Andy Whiteside: Yeah. For your bill your thoughts on this part.

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Bill Sutton: No, I I you know I agree completely. This is part of you know. This is part of

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Bill Sutton: of making sure you deliver what the customer desires, and I I would add, in terms of You know it’s it’s one thing to connect, collect a lot of data and analyze it, and determine, based on the data how the the the solution is performing. But I think the Jeremy’s point one of the key

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Bill Sutton: metrics here, which is often not easily achievable short of interviewing an end-user is really understanding what the end users. You know what the end users opinion is of the solution. In other words, how do they feel about it? Is how is it performing from their perspective? Granted, that’s a very subjective determination, whereas what we’re talking about here is more objective information, but that’s critical to success as well, because we could look at the objective detail and all the insights and all the data, and it looks like it should be performing well, and it’s doing what it’s supposed to do. But if the user doesn’t like it.

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Bill Sutton: it’s not going to be a success and all likelihood. So you need to evaluate the user the user themselves and their opinions as a part of this, which I think is really what this is saying in a roundabout way.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: it would be easy to say, hey, spin up the Citrix monitoring tools and gather data. You could do that, and there’s certainly things that you could pull from that, either from performance or security analytics. But I mean some of your metrics are things like support tickets, you know, have your support tickets gone up after you rolled out to ask.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: It could be from any number of third-party solutions. As well just understand that.

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Bill Sutton: You know you need to gather pieces from all over to help give you sort of a broader look it really how everything’s performing. Well, some somebody might have been Microsoft years ago. Did a study on how many times a user would click on the an error button the okay on an error button before they would call support, and it was like 3 or 4 times that they’d click on it. I think it was 4 times if they would click on it 4 times.

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Bill Sutton: and and the application would work and function

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Bill Sutton: they’d there’d never be a support ticket. But that users perception of that environment, maybe maybe skewed by that experience. Well, if you had to click in the fifth time they would call support, and then it would get resolved. But off the users will just move on through the issue, and and just simply

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Bill Sutton: accepted as the cost of working in the environment. But it does often result in a negative perception.

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Andy Whiteside: and and i’ll use that moment to talk about things we’re doing here to invest further in that around like service now, and other real time data technologies where you know itsm becomes a natural flow. When an issue pops up. It can just kind of happen without having to make that dreaded support phone call. Because i’m i’m like every other user I just

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gmeyers@tibco.com: I go find a different way. I’d I’d be dang if I want to have to call support desk. And by the way, I notice there’s an update for the itms adapter on the out there. Andy. So maybe for a future.

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Andy Whiteside: Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, that’s I just got back from the service now. Conference. I’m: so excited about opportunities to take all of our different technologies and bring them together. We’re going to crush it.

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Andy Whiteside: All right. Realizable transformation strategy. Here’s the one they want to say, and then, Bill, come to you on this digital transformation is happening. It will never end. I will be dead before it’s over, and it will keep going for generations. After that your digital workspace strategy you put in place. Better be ready to go with it.

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Andy Whiteside: and it you better be ready for it to adapt without having to redo it over and over and over again. Bill, Go ahead.

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Bill Sutton: Yeah, I think this section that you’ve got highlighted. A realizable transformation strategy is really kind of a an augment or an addition to the the section Jeremy talked about. This is really about taking the insights and making decisions and optimizing your strategy for it, and then delivering the right types of recommendations to stakeholders. So this is really an outgrowth of the prior one.

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Bill Sutton: It’s it’s obviously critical in making sure that

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Bill Sutton: that you take the data you have and and help the organization

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Bill Sutton: act on that data and understand it and what it means to them. You know, from the standpoint of how the environment is performing, or or what needs to be improved, could be things like they. They need to add hosts, or they need to add capacity in order to, in order to really be able to make the solution transform their business.

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Andy Whiteside: Jeremy, up to all time. He told a customer a day and

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Andy Whiteside: 60 a year later. Whatever new employee later new, you know, CIO. Later

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Andy Whiteside: transformation thoughts around what was going to be, what what was going to be. The meeting of success evolved.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: I mean, your your goals are gonna change. But I mean, I think this is Devops 101 right. So you you’ve got to be able to take the feedback in process and just constantly

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Yeah, loop it back in, You know this is an iterative process, so you will never get this perfect. But you should always be striving for perfect is really what it is. Well, you should dive your eyes, cross your teeth and realize it’s going to be wrong, and we get it wrong. We’ll.

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Andy Whiteside: we’ll do it will change with that.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Yup.

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Andy Whiteside: I had a I had a real life experience. I’ll share with you a quick where I got on a bus. The bus yeah to the public transportation trying to get to a meeting the other week. I had time. I had things going on. I just jumped on a bus. Well, about 10 min later I realized the bus was the right bus, but go in their own direction. Just got off. Went back the other way. It’s okay.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: You know what you you fail early on that. You don’t. Wait until you get halfway through the trip before you decide to do it. You go all right. We’re going the wrong way. Let’s let’s get off the bus when you realize it’s the wrong way, whether it’s

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Andy Whiteside: 2 min into it or 2 years into it.

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Andy Whiteside: You down.

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Andy Whiteside: Yeah, there is this. There’s a social psychology conversation we could be having right now, but we’ll skip it for right now. Yeah, that’s a that’s a very good point. Alright. So i’ll hit this next one. It’s a a mature flexible technology. I think we’re really talking about. Here is Citrix, because it has scars on its knuckles. Going back to my example, I I’ve got a drill like I said I, 2 holes in my fingers Yesterday.

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Andy Whiteside: the second time I told myself, don’t do that again, and it I did it again. Scars on your knuckles. Experience community, lots of technology accomplishments, citrix in the digital workspace space. It’ll be around dad. But digital workspace in general.

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Andy Whiteside: these 30 plus years of solutions. Any evolution

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Andy Whiteside: means that everything we talked about so far. If you had to go to a project right now, using one technology for a desktop as a service offering.

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Andy Whiteside: You’re gonna pick Citrix.

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Andy Whiteside: That means it’s the only one that would work, but it’s the one that has most likely

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Andy Whiteside: what you need, Jeremy, go ahead.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: I would agree with that. I mean it’s flexible. It covers all your bases, and the I think the biggest thing is is the basis that it doesn’t cover. So maybe we don’t cover all of them. We realize you’re going to bring to the table things that that Aren’t, Citrix and the other, you know, guiding principle here is, you know, integration as well, so.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: and we can integrate with just about everything as well, which is important.

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Andy Whiteside: Bill. Your thoughts on

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Andy Whiteside: what you’ve seen happen over the last 30 years of citrix.

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Bill Sutton: Oh, yeah, I mean, I would agree with the that being the solution, Citrix being this the solution in a majority of cases, and not the only solution, but certainly the one the theions. Why, I picked it as the one that I I wanted to kind of base my career on many years ago. But this is this section. You know. The the key thing of this section, in my view, is the

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Bill Sutton: second, the last paragraph. And this is I I harp on this all the time. It it that you you need to provide a technology, or If you’re providing a technology where the users

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Bill Sutton: spend the most of their time, it needs to meet their requirements and impute, improve their their lives and prove their their. The experience needs to be solid, and it needs to improve their their work. Allow them to do work easier, more efficiently, and from anywhere. Among many other factors.

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Andy Whiteside: Hey? You can’t afford Citrix. It’s just there’s ways to buy it right. But in some cases it might be you. You can’t afford this. Let’s look at other alternatives, but looking for the one that that makes checks all the boxes. Get you future proof

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Andy Whiteside: it Citrix, and maybe others. But certainly Citrix is going to be the one that’s gonna have most of the check boxes check if the box is capable of being checked. Yes.

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Andy Whiteside: yeah, alright, guys.

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Andy Whiteside: you know, if you’re listening to this.

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Andy Whiteside: reach out to us, you know you reach out to. We pro reach out to a partner.

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Andy Whiteside: Evaluate that partner. My statement. Everybody in this gets control every once in a while it’s reach out to a couple of partners doesn’t have to be in tech or reach out to a couple and take the advice and see if you can blend them all together to come up with what’s what’s right for you and one of the nice things about today’s world, you know. Jeremy and his team are part of the partner Ecosystem. Now

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Andy Whiteside: you’re getting Citrix, and if you’re talking to a partner. They don’t have. Bring Citrix to the table with them. Ask them to bring them to the table with them, because they’re supposed to be there these days. You, Mr. Customer, deserve the best of both, which means bringing multiple partners in the vendor to the table. And then from there we’ll see where we can go following the right approach.

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Andy Whiteside: and and that’s been my message forever and ever and ever, Jeremy. Thanks for the time. Anything we didn’t cover here that you wanna make sure we leave our listeners with?

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gmeyers@tibco.com: No, this is good. This is great. I’ll I’ll double down on finding a your partner for sure, because I think there’s so much around Citrix that involves not Citrix, and I think you just need someone who can step in and help.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: you know. Just pull the solution together for you.

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Yeah.

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Bill Sutton: So what do you think? Now? I would agree with with Jeremy? There’s definitely, you know, Citrix Environment building a centric environment is not a it’s not necessarily overly difficult, but it requires some specialization and knowledge of

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Bill Sutton: part piece pieces and parts that are not citrix, active Directory group policies, other elements, and you know you want to make sure, when you pick a partner, that that you’re sure that they have that requisite knowledge and citrix. But also understand how it fits into the overall environment to ensure Success

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Andy Whiteside: Bill. How many projects have you done that failed because of Citrix?

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Bill Sutton: I don’t think I’ve had any that failed because of Citrix. How many fail because of some other ecosystem? Oh, absolutely yeah, we’ve had. We’ve had some, and we’ve had those where they were exceeding challenges that were caused by another environment or another part of the environment or another product

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Bill Sutton: that we were able to resolve. But it took a lot of effort on our part and the part of the customer, and some pain

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Bill Sutton: which certainly blemish the overall solution at the at the start. But ultimately, in most cases we come out of it. We come out of it fine, but it’s it’s a hard experience, so it’s a hard lesson to learn, I guess

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Andy Whiteside: well, and i’ll go back to the title of this blog desktop. As a service environment. It’s a combination of lots of

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Andy Whiteside: philosophical, philosophical and other methodologies and products

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human interaction.

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Andy Whiteside: It it takes a lot

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Andy Whiteside: good and always working towards getting it right or better.

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Yep.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: gentlemen, thank you for the time. Excellent. It’s good to be back.

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Andy Whiteside: Let’s get tied back on. I

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Andy Whiteside: I saw online the other day. He has a new role. I think we’ll ask him about it when we get back when he comes to us again.

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gmeyers@tibco.com: Alright, guys. Thank you.