135: The Citrix Session: How cloud economics can help you optimize DaaS costs

Jun 6, 2023

56 percent less hardware spending each year. That’s how much organizations can potentially save with a desktop as a service (DaaS) solution. There are many benefits related to moving to the cloud using solutions like DaaS (such as improved employee and IT efficiency, easier software upgrades, and enhanced security), but optimizing IT spend is usually the main driver. Because the cost of cloud computing is based on the IT resources you actually use, it’s usually much most cost-effective than building out physical server rooms that can sit idle during off-peak times.

Host: Andy Whiteside
Co-host: Geremy Meyers
Co-host: Todd Smith

WEBVTT

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Andy Whiteside: I want to look up to you.

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Andy Whiteside: Number one, buck and 2. Episode 135 of the citric session of your host, Andy White. So I’m coming to you from my in-laws house, and I’m not really sure what my bandwidth scenario is, so we’ll see how this goes. I’ve got the

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Andy Whiteside: Todd Smith from a cloud software group, and Jeremy Myers from Cloud Software group, both Citrix and Netscal are subject matter experts. But you guys consider yourself subject matter experts on anything else in the Cloud soft group stack.

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Geremy Meyers: you know what I think I would. I’m always afraid to say yes, but we’ll just say, citrus in that scalar and occasionally podium. There you go. Yeah.

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Todd Smith: in every once in a while, for some Zen server skills in there.

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Andy Whiteside: Yeah, I guess. let’s see 2 things. If you look at the the amount of people out there that have Zen server expertise and experience. You’re you’re probably in the upper 1%.

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Geremy Meyers: That’s a good call. That’s a very good call

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Andy Whiteside: And then regarding Sharefall, you’re probably in the upper 10%. So I I’d say yes to both of those.

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Todd Smith: Yeah.

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Geremy Meyers: that’s fair. That’s fair. Although I would give my I get much here for still file knowledge a pretty good nod.

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Geremy Meyers: But Ca, considering it’s a new, be you now, and I’ve been out of the loop here for probably 6 or 8 months. I’m not quite sure what the latest greatest is, and that’s probably being pretty transparent there.

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Todd Smith: Yup! In fact, he threw down the podium cards there. It was pretty pretty strong

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Geremy Meyers: it is I, you know I would take a step further, actually use the flows a lot right now. So you know, we’ve got some workflows. that I’ve been using global flow for that are pretty good. So just trying to figure out how to navigate requests that come in. You know, I built some web forms that we’ll, kinda you know, notify some folks gather some info and try to get that over to the right team.

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Andy Whiteside: You know, we’re gonna talk about Cloud today. But I’m gonna make the argument that

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Andy Whiteside: enabling and making workflows more efficient is the most important thing that it does in a business today.

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Geremy Meyers: Yep, I would not dis disagree with you, and and seeing that first hand it really just I mean where it all starts, is gathering requirements from the business, right? So I think a lot of times being someone who’s built things technology over the years. I like to start with the technology. And I go to figure out where to put it on the flip side. This is really turned into, you know. What needs am I seeing from the business. And how do I turn that into a workflow? And what technology can I leverage to get that done? So

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Geremy Meyers: you’re absolutely right, Andy.

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Andy Whiteside: we got a call

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Andy Whiteside: mechanics infrastructure, Guy Friday. And

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Andy Whiteside: it was pretty stand office. And we started talking about workflows and automations. And it was no, no, no. And then we started talking. Okay, what’s your biggest challenges with takes up most of your time and start talking about, you know, workflows are associated with those that we’re doing for only Newton’s environment.

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Andy Whiteside: And it came around pretty quick.

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Todd Smith: Well, it and it’s becoming much more critical

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Todd Smith: as in terms of the auditing in the in the actual documentation piece of work workflow. And if you can build a good workflow, you don’t have to do as much documentation because it’s already built into that workflow itself.

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Todd Smith: especially for things like approvals signatures

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Todd Smith: a variety of different, you know. You look at most workflows nowadays. There’s multiple branches that go off of a workflow.

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Todd Smith: you know. And it’s just gonna it’s it’s not only is it going to optimize it, but it’s also going to create it as a

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Todd Smith: in in such a way that the compliance programs are

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Todd Smith: are easily implemented that way.

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Andy Whiteside: So, Todd, I got some else to talk about. But you hit on some there that I love, and that we have a product called App T, which we use across those integral business units.

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Andy Whiteside: and what it does is you get to something in a workflow, and you don’t know what it does. You kind of hover over it, and it starts to explain in more detail what that is, real time, which is extremely powerful.

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Todd Smith: It’s a great It’s a great product, you know. Some people are what we’re over there.

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Andy Whiteside: Yeah, just say some of the Citrix folks left to go there. That’s how we got to.

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Andy Whiteside: hey? But how about this? I may have said this in a podcast with you guys, or

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Andy Whiteside: maybe what with you guys, I said several times, but we’ve spent our careers justifying ourselves on the id infrastructure side of things as being a enabler for the business, not a call center. And to some degree we failed at that. but we start talking about workflows like we just we’re talking about

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Andy Whiteside: it becomes a no brainer for the business like you, only you probably don’t get questioned about it. It becomes a natural conversation about how that’s enabling the business. What you guys think about that state?

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Todd Smith: I I think it’s I think it’s one area that that we have been able to see it

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Todd Smith: becoming much more of an enabler when it comes to business process.

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Todd Smith:  you know, we’ve got tools we’ve got. We’ve got history, you know, in the It community. We we’ve got a history of being able to do workflows

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Todd Smith: everything from.

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Todd Smith: you know, upgrading a server to rolling out a new application to doing onboarding a new user. Those are all workflows that existed.

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Todd Smith: The the big shift has now become automating those workflows

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Todd Smith: instead of having a checklist or a sheet of paper that you’re working through, that that’s becoming your documentation. The the the workflow itself has become much more

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Todd Smith: electronically driven or or technology driven as opposed to, you know, the old days of.

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Todd Smith: you know, keeping binders worth of reference material.

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Todd Smith: File the way. And that’s, you know, that’s the impact of the of the way the technology has progressed. But also the way you know, the employees and the and the people are actually doing the work

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Todd Smith: have progressed as well. you know you brought up, apt you before, you know App. You know all of those things that are making it easier to to consume a workflow

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Todd Smith: or deliver a workflow.

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Todd Smith:  that used to be manual. So people used to have to read through. you think about it is, you know, you pull out a

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Todd Smith: unbox. Your computer. The first thing you see is A, read B, first.

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Todd Smith: those things don’t even exist anymore. You’re getting a laptop in a box that basically has 3 color codes or 3 colored cables. You plug them in.

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Todd Smith: connect to your Wi-fi network and machine knows how to how to do that right? It’s it’s becoming much more simplified

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Todd Smith: because people don’t need to go into a lot of that reading. You know the the workflow of creating it. Or starting up a new computer is has become simplified as well, the applications themselves are becoming much more,

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Todd Smith: self, document.

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Geremy Meyers:  it. And so you know, I totally agree with todd and you kind of wonder, what’s enabled this

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Geremy Meyers: you know, we covered this on a podcast I don’t know. A few weeks ago we talked about Apis and Rest Api’s. And when you think about it, like the products that were built 1015 years ago. I mean, they just didn’t have this natively built in. The reason they were manual is because the software was very manual, right? Like I had to go take a request from like a service. Now, type solution

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Geremy Meyers: and go all right. I see a ticket come in. Great. Now I gotta go do this other manual thing because it’s a separate system that didn’t interact because systems back then just didn’t interact the way they do. They did. But Middleware companies made it Crapton over the years, you know, kind of figuring out how to do this. I remember there’s a tool I use called auto it that would manually do a workflow. But you know what it did. It’s simulated someone clicking a button. It literally had to look on the screen and figure out where to press a button, and it would send a virtual click. I mean, that was

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Geremy Meyers: that was my automation 20 years ago. Now I mean, we talked about how Citrus Cloud, the Das tenant. You know they have an open arrest. Api, so you can automate some things. You know, we have an adapter built into that cloud tenant that you can automate. We’re moving these things on Prem as well.

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Geremy Meyers: The idea of being so that you can automate it so that when you go into a service now, and you know right now it’s still, you know, I’ve got to go open a ticket that’s slowly becoming more automated right? you know, like things like chat bots. But ultimately I go to service. Now request something, and on the back end there’s not a human doing anything. It’s all automated. And Annie and I have talked about how to make that even more automated right? So there’s no reason why.

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Geremy Meyers: you know, it takes anyone to go reset a session anymore. Why can’t we automate that process? So you know, if we go into the technology and we’ve all been consumers of these workloads for a long time like, Todd said. They’ve been very manual.

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Geremy Meyers: but now we’ve automated them, and I think that’s where that’s going to continue to evolve. And so it makes it easier for us to think through workflows and kind of what that looks like is.

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Geremy Meyers: you know, at the end of the day we’re going to start looking at software going. Well, how can I fit that into my automation strategy as much as we’re talking about? How can I get a desktop in front of someone?

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Andy Whiteside: I agree with you guys the same time you guys just made it the It centric conversations. I think the biggest game change and all. That is that same methodology and thought process, because it’s becoming easier with platforms to tie in Apis for things like service now and everything else with the Api.

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Andy Whiteside: It’s it’s now outside of it. And it’s every business unit. It’s starting to think.

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Andy Whiteside: okay, how do I improve efficiencies with this and use technology to do it.

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Todd Smith: Well, it. And it’s really kind of driving this economic discussion as well. Right?

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Todd Smith: It’s if I can automate the administrative costs. I’ve already found ways to reduce the costs within the data center by leveraging cloud resources or outsourcing

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Todd Smith: data centers, or, you know.

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Todd Smith: support functionality or variety of different things. It’s yet another thing. It goes into this giant economic formula to determine what is the best. You know. How much money are we actually saving? How much of the benefit do we have? I I think there’s a huge aspect of it. As well.

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Todd Smith: you know, when we’re when we’re looking at the total cost of ownership. One thing that we never factored into that was the ongoing operational reduction in in administrative costs.

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Todd Smith: there was actually quantifiable

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Todd Smith: right? So we know that we can speed up the user

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Todd Smith: on boarding. We know that we can reduce the number of help desk tickets through self service. We know that we can go and reduce the number of

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Todd Smith: applications that we need to manage. But there’s also the aspect of

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Todd Smith: who’s using the applications. How do we charge it back? How do we charge for the resource locations that we’re actually utilizing? you know, going back to Jeremy’s

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Todd Smith: example of being able to spin up a new resource

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Todd Smith: location, or or a new resource for a user to connect to whether it be a virtual desktop or some type of other device. It’s out there, or some type of other service that’s out there. What if we could get real time information about hey? You know what? For this month it’s going to be cheaper to run this on azure or use it as a third party data center or use the resource. Simply. So that’s where we’re going to start seeing a lot of this economic impact

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Todd Smith: come to fruition.

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Andy Whiteside: So, Todd, that’s a good step way to our topic. Our blog for today is from the Cloud software group content team, whoever that is. But the blog title is how to how cloud economics can help you optimize

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Andy Whiteside: dazz desktop is a service cost. And I had built up another screen. The I

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Andy Whiteside: total cost optimizer total cost calculator Tco.

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Andy Whiteside: and what I’m highlighting in that common is.

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Andy Whiteside: you know, 20 years into this business, and I still have only found 2 customers. And all that time they walked into a meeting.

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Andy Whiteside: saying they do what their total cost of ownership of a PC. To buy it, manage it, maintain a deep provision. It was one was my very first meeting, and the other was a a joke. He said it was $500 total over 3 years. So a couple of $100 each year. you know, this, this changes the game when we start talking about moving it into somebody else’s environment, whether it’s, you know, it’s Integr data center, or whether it’s your own data center managed by somebody else in a different rack or in true public cloud.

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Andy Whiteside: But all of a sudden you get a bill, and you can divide that bill by the number of desktops. And all of a sudden you know exactly what it’s cost.

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Andy Whiteside: So in this blog generally jump in first. what? The the couple of interrupts. What are they trying to point out?

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Geremy Meyers: so there the first one they’re they’re mentioning the fact that folks appear to be spending less hardware each year in data centers. Right? So of course, if they’re not spinning it in a data center, you know where they sending it, you know they send it in the cloud.

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Geremy Meyers: probably. But I think there’s a lot of nuance to that. yeah. So we will talk about as a citrus companies. Csg, there’s a lot of benefit to going to the dash service. and how you can leverage that

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Geremy Meyers: to help manage some costs. but a lot of the reasoning folks are considering clouds, you know. J. And I, Todd knows this. You know, we joke about this all the time. you know they’re they’re considering clouds because they’re trying to optimize it. Spend now in reality. that’s not always the case. It’s not always what happens. Danny’s point is, he’s mentioned a customer, and you know, talking about, you know, price per endpoint.

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Geremy Meyers:  you. You’ve got to treat your usage in the cloud much different than you do on Prem, because it will be more expensive, you know, optimizing it. Spend

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Geremy Meyers: in the cloud. It’s got to be a full time job for not just one person, but for a team of people. And there’s a lot of software out there. That does that right. But

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Geremy Meyers: you know, cloud computing is certainly more flexible, but it also takes more oversight as well. Just to make sure you are at actually optimizing your spend. We got a lot of customers who have moved to the cloud, who have also moved

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Geremy Meyers: back, or at least landed, in some sort of hybrid approach, you know, for that exact reason.

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Andy Whiteside: So let’s do some of this call. Let’s let’s when we say Cloud, let’s try to specific call out, which

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Andy Whiteside: part of cloud we’re talking about? Is it? Is it pads? Is it S? Is it dance, or is it a little bit of all the above, like that conversation so far, has been around that desk, including the control plane as well as where the desktops are running, which, stiff on top of is right

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Geremy Meyers: correct, I mean, so it is a little bit of what you just said. It is, Pad. It is I, as we have customers who are deciding to look at their application stack and replace that with something more cloud native because they don’t want to spend I as on it, they much rather that’d be a pad service. You know. Folks aren’t spending money, you know, specifically standing up, you know, a Crm solution with virtual machines. And I, as anymore, what are they doing using salesforce? They’re using some solution like that. So I mean, it’s a, it’s a very nuanced conversation for sure. Yeah.

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Todd Smith: And and I think also also to that into Jeremy’s part of the conversation. It’s it’s

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Todd Smith: say I select pla a platform as a service. So, for instance, I want to go with Sa salesforce. Well, salesforce maybe the platform. But there’s a bunch of other

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Todd Smith: fast solutions to get bolted into there right? So I’m using salesforce. For one thing, I may be using something else that adds a value on top of that. And

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Todd Smith: now, all of a sudden, you look at it and say, well, my salesforce costs have gone up. Well, the cost of running my overall Crm, my overall customer.

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Todd Smith: experience, environment has gone up because I’ve started bolting on all these additional tools. It’s very similar. When you buy a car, you start off with the base model and you start adding packages. In some cases you’re you’re adding, not individual components. You’re adding in a suite of packages or a a feature pack that’s going to include, you know, the automatic

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Todd Smith: door openers as well as the automatic windows.

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Todd Smith: You know a a variety of different things. The only way you can get that is to either build a custom car or you build or you buy some some version

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Todd Smith: of the car.

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Todd Smith: you’ve got to look at that total total overall impact. and I think all historically, yep, go ahead. I want to. I don’t know if you just did. You made me think about something which is really a great way to tell this story for me. Personally, I’ve got a I got an old G,

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Andy Whiteside: and I’ve got a a new bronco part of the broncos that we did give away. Last year a customer came in, came in at the wrong time. But my point and all that is

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Andy Whiteside: the god you just said the word customizing, and what I’m finding on both.

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Geremy Meyers: Oh, I think I I think Andy’s mother in laws Wi-fi is family. Why, if I may have gone out. So. Huh?

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Todd Smith: So finish your thought there, Todd. I’m sorry. So you know, when you look at the cost of customizing anything. I think this is the point that Andy was trying to get to was

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Todd Smith: the the cost of customizing is always one of the most expensive you can get out there.

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Todd Smith: If everyone could get away with a generic car, everyone in the world would be driving a you go.

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Todd Smith: problem is is that? Yes, it got you from point A to Point B.

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Todd Smith: It wasn’t very comfortable. It wasn’t very affordable when you start figuring and maintenance costs and things like that.

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Todd Smith: But it was, it’s solve that basic me. Now, all of a sudden everyone’s looking at saying, you know what I want to have an additional

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Todd Smith: function or an additional capability added in there. And I know, in order to get that, I need to be able to purchase it as a bundle.

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Geremy Meyers: Yeah. So what airplane does Southwest airlines use. They all use 7, 37. They all you 737. Right? They do that for a very specific reason. You know, it’s it’s just. It’s just simple. No customization will just make it generic. We know the cost of managing a fleet of airline airplanes

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Geremy Meyers: when it’s all the same model is insanely cheap now, does it work for every airline? No, you’re not going to find Southwest flying to Tokyo, or certain long distance destinations right? But for domestic carrier. It makes a whole lot of sense. You can get anywhere in the Us. On a 737,

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Todd Smith: and and you have one type of pilot with one type of certification needed. You have one type of maintenance guys.

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Todd Smith: They have to have one supply chain of parts and pieces, and they can swap out

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Todd Smith: those those parts and pieces any time.

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Andy Whiteside: And and I’ll use that to tie into those integral data centers that we built, that we’ve got

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Andy Whiteside: got a whole team of guys that have learned Newtonics. Hv. Aos citrix integration with that.

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Andy Whiteside: And it makes it a to me a scale for us to the host customers that buy into that platform with us a no brainer, even if it means we, you know, put the

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Andy Whiteside: put the solution in their data center or in the public cloud or in our news.

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Geremy Meyers: Yeah, yep.

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Geremy Meyers: So this next session section, by the way, so before we skip through, we’re talking about cloud economics, but they drop a word in that previous section, Andy, how to use the cloud elasticity to your advantage. Right? So at the end of the day.

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Geremy Meyers: What? Actually, I might have skipped ahead either way I did. I I got too excited.

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Andy Whiteside: so I’ll pause. That one we’ll get. We’ll get the elasticity later. But continue with your thought. Let me let me let me let me have that. Let’s see, was that in the intro, or you got me confusing. Now is that the second? It’s in the third section or the or the fourth. No, I’ll drop and dug it now for that one look in in dance. It’s got to be a really important use case if you do anything other than multi section azure.

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Andy Whiteside: because that’s where the scale seem to start kicking in around X number of users for might need to define X based on use case. But okay, the second section, the definition of cloudy economics.

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Andy Whiteside: Todd, you want to handle that?

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Todd Smith: Yeah, it’s so. I think I I think it. And and business folks are are really kind of still facing the same problem. And that’s the problem that

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Todd Smith: historically.

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Todd Smith: you’ve always built out data centers as a facility.

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Todd Smith: it’s a, it’s a long term investment

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Todd Smith: by the business or by the organization to to. you know, build out the physical data center.

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Todd Smith: fill it up with all kinds of equipment

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Todd Smith: services that go into it, and those are oftentimes amortized over a long period of time. 20 plus years. In some cases problem is the economics of a subscription service now are.

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Todd Smith: Have it kind of thrown a monkey wrench into it right? So the cloud, and talk about being able to swap in and swap out resources. Well, if you’re pains for those resources over 20 years, you’re not going to be able to see that return

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Todd Smith: on that investment very quickly. So there has to be a shift in the way we think about the economics of the cloud

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Todd Smith: in being able to break it down into. You know, in some cases the economics can change on a week to week or a month to month basis, and in some cases some of these commodity items.

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Todd Smith: the prices change on a daily basis.

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Todd Smith: Some of it’s based on usage, some of it based on availability of resources.

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Todd Smith: some of you know this, this capability of being able to burst

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Todd Smith: things out. Those are all fairly new concepts to the traditional brick and border type of environment.

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Todd Smith: so the the economics and the the economic principles behind the cloud have changed considerably.

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Andy Whiteside: So, Todd, before we go into the economics of which is 100%. What we’re talking about, let me ask, let me hit it. Both of you guys, with this one simple question.

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Andy Whiteside: true or false.

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Andy Whiteside: is the technology you use to implement? Build out your own data center, technically out of date, the day you go like.

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okay?

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Andy Whiteside: Or it’s not the latest. How about that?

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Geremy Meyers: It’s definitely not the latest.

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Todd Smith: Yeah.

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Andy Whiteside: because you had to design this thing 1224 months in advance, based on what was available. Then, by the time you you open the door the first time to really use it.

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Andy Whiteside: That’s that’s 12 months old.

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Geremy Meyers: And sometimes from a technology perspective. Sometimes I choose not to buy something, because I’m gonna wait for the next thing to come out, and then I’ll buy it right? So I’ve held off buying

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Andy Whiteside: networking gear before I’ve hit off buying server models before, simply because I knew the new version was coming out in 6 months, and I didn’t want to get left behind.

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Geremy Meyers: That was back. What I it was really easy to get to. I could put an order in and have someone ship that to my my data center pretty quick. Yeah, you’re absolutely right that you could go on to 5 vendors and quoted, Get up! Get the best price now, you lucky if one of them can get it.

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Geremy Meyers: Yes.

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Todd Smith: there’s also there’s also the history of of what we’ve run into is the dot 0 release. Right? So if you buy something and it’s the first one off the assembly line.

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Todd Smith: you may want to hold off until they get a couple of 100 units shipped

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Todd Smith: right? and that that that was something that was hardware.

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Todd Smith: then switched over to the software industry as well. So you know, being able to understand that that part of

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Todd Smith: you know, the the history sometimes makes those behaviors. And that’s one of the things that we’re we’re fighting years. We’re we’re trying to change people’s behaviors, and

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Todd Smith: in some cases make them forget some of the history pieces of it.

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Geremy Meyers: I got a fun question. This is a little bit of a rat hole, but you guys have a room or burning servers in.

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Geremy Meyers: or you’d you’d spin it up and let it run for a day or 2. It was the last time you burn in a cloud instance. It’s not something that you turn it on. It’s right. Right.

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Geremy Meyers: There you go.

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Andy Whiteside: I it. And it kind of car. I I wanna you know. Let it go. Anything new. My car, I I do that. My laptop. So this theories I need to

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Andy Whiteside: let it run for a couple of days.

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Geremy Meyers: Yeah. Yeah.

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Todd Smith: But but I think going back to one of the one of the comments that you made Andy a couple of minutes ago was, you know. To reason why you could turn on a service and start using it immediately is because Andy has already done the burn in. Zoomtaker has already done the burn, and they’ve got the skill set to build it the right way and maintain it the right way, so that

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Todd Smith: you know you’re picking up

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Todd Smith: I don’t want to say use car. But it’s already gone through that burning program.

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Todd Smith: the burning period. right? So it’s ready to use when when the end user needs to have access to it.

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Andy Whiteside: And for whatever reason, we had a whole series of mutantics, nodes, not mechanics. We actually came from another manufacturer of mechanic software on it

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Andy Whiteside: where we had a bunch of failures right on the game. No, I won’t say the manufacturers name. It wasn’t new.

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Andy Whiteside: but yeah, we we saw that happen.

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Andy Whiteside: It burned in was the reason why we found.

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Geremy Meyers: yeah.

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Andy Whiteside: okay,

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Andy Whiteside: this next section here. Why, calculating Tco is more complicated in the cloud and cloud computing. in theory it’s supposed to be easier. Jeremy, why are they saying it’s more complicated?

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Geremy Meyers: I mean it. It’s it’s sort of a basic equation, you know, when you buy hardware that costs a certain amount. When you buy software that costs a certain amount, there’s this, why do you have some costs like, you know, up front how much it’s gonna cost? Because you’re paying for it. Now.

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Geremy Meyers: in theory, the idea is that could be more expensive than a pay as you go, model right? So if I can, as opposed to paying for things upfront

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Geremy Meyers: could pay as I leverage it. in theory.

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Geremy Meyers: could be easier. Right? The challenge is, you’ve got to be able to figure out how to calculate that you got to keep an eye on it, you’d be able to so sort of thing where you need to have a constant feedback loop on how much you’re spending, so that you can adjust accordingly. You know you can’t treat

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Geremy Meyers: the cloud. I as you know. So to your point earlier, I’ll get very specific the way you treated your data center on Prem, because if you do, the cloud is definitely much more expensive. But you know, calculating, that is is a whole lot harder like, it’s hard to predict

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Geremy Meyers: how much you’re going to use. So you constantly have to. It’s a feedback loop. Now, how much do you use? Is that enough? Is that too little? Let’s let’s adjust right as opposed to like we just talked about with the stack of servers. I just plug them in and turn them on, and I’ll think about it for 3 years. So it’s time to refresh.

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Andy Whiteside: Yeah. So

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Andy Whiteside: maybe the calculating can be harder. And in theory you could associate with it. But you don’t predict, I guess maybe is. But it’s really hard to protect. Otherwise Andy, would folks be going to the Cloud?

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Andy Whiteside: yeah, I think in some cases they would. Here’s here’s my statement on this. I think there’s so many cios out there that bought into cloud, and I think it’s partially for their own benefit of building out their own career that yes, they would, no matter what.

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Andy Whiteside:  I just like you, you you and I. I don’t know about Todd, but you and I live in a place where healthy prices are, have gone through the roof in the last 12 months and 24 months, and people say, Well, you’d be an idiot to go by one of these. But yet people are coming by on, no matter what.

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Todd Smith: Oh, yeah. By the way, I live in a very expensive housing market as well. So

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Todd Smith: yeah.

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Todd Smith: What? When they claim a 6,400 a month rent

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Todd Smith: or or mortgage payment is affordable housing. That’s that’s a problem.

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Todd Smith: Yeah, how is that your is that your neighborhood time? I don’t. You’re it’s it’s actually it’s actually in the the student population area around Boston University that they’re building. They’re building housing that is considered affordable for $6,400 a month.

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Geremy Meyers: I can’t even contemplate that.

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Todd Smith: Yeah, wow. So well, here’s a little sidetrack there.

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Andy Whiteside: real quick. So yes, I can probably calculate it. But don’t we have the normal thing that has to happen, which is a very it guy type thing. Which is you way over by when you do your home.

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Todd Smith: Yeah. well, and that’s one that’s one of the things that we’re we’re faced with. Right. And I think this is going to be where we can tie it into the workflow conversation that we started off with, because

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Todd Smith: you would think that as you’re moving to the cloud, or as you’re moving into grace, this platform as a service or infrastructure as a service one of those workflows that has to be run

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Todd Smith: on a regular basis, whether it be monthly or weekly.

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Todd Smith: Is your cost calculations right? Because that’s going to give you what what your reality is and what you’re actually paying for

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Todd Smith: as opposed to what your what you thought the calculation was going to be what you thought the total cost of ownership is going to be when you made your initial decision initial investment. You’ve got to be able to come back on a regular basis. Say, look, you know, we are saving money, or we’re we’re going over.

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Todd Smith: We need to find another resource that we can put in here.

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Todd Smith: to replace

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Todd Smith: this much more cost or costly

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Todd Smith: resources that we’re consuming. Currently, right? So maybe that’s an opportunity to to leverage some of those workflows, and to also, you know, the the the economics of it is it’s got because you are on a subscription, and you’re paying on a regular basis. You pay as you go.

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Todd Smith: You have to be mindful of what your costs are

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Todd Smith: as you’re going along that path as you’re going along and adjourn.

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Andy Whiteside: Sometimes you said that it made me think of something.

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Andy Whiteside: What if I say this, if we get to a world where it’s all staff software as a service.

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Andy Whiteside: and it’s all, and it’s all, all sass and pad. It’s one of the other which to me, like, you know, salesforce is a path that has built in Sas. Then other companies can write Sas that align with does this whole conversation we’re out of Des and I, as you know the cost of running machines pretty much is going.

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Todd Smith: I I think you’re still gonna have

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Todd Smith: a sunk set of costs. Right? You’re gonna have a a basic subscription cost. And then there’s going to be pay as you go, services

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Todd Smith: that may get bolted onto there.

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Todd Smith: Now, how much of a percentage your monthly cost is going to be actually that that baseline

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Todd Smith: that’s going to be the thing that’s going to be

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Todd Smith: unique to the customer. You need to

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Todd Smith: the individual situation right?

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Todd Smith: because that’s something that that nobody can really control. It’s like the. you know you. You buy a gym membership, and you have the baseline, and then they add on, Hey, you stop at the juice bar. There’s going to be some additional cost for that, or you enter into a

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Todd Smith: a, a work out of the day challenge where you’re gonna have to do a

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Todd Smith: you have to. You have to pay a little extra to to do that, or you have to, even though you

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Todd Smith: you know, it’s a it’s part of your additional services that you add on top of there.

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Todd Smith: But there’s gonna be a baseline subscription call.

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Geremy Meyers: So we when you think about that Todd, so how does a company like azure solve that for customers? Well, there, this whole concept of reserve instances. Right? So if I can.

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Geremy Meyers: you know, have a some cost in the terms of I get a super discount. If I commit

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Geremy Meyers: to a certain amount of, you know, capacity for 3 years. Right? So there is my quote on quotes on cost, and I have some piece of this. That is variable, because I just don’t know exactly how much it’s going to cost. Right? So you know, I can help manage cost that way. I think a lot of customers aren’t entirely sure they they don’t think through reserved instances. But that’s a very big deal. It’s one way to get outside of auto scaling that we talked about a lot which is a bit, you know, able to, you know. Manage your elasticity, you know, up and down, based on usage.

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Geremy Meyers: There’s going to be some base level of usage that you can actually reduce the spend on. So that’s important to understand.

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Todd Smith: And and I think that’s a really great kind of

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Todd Smith: transition point here. because that elasticity, that that that ability to auto scale and the ability to to kind of have that pay as you go component.

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Todd Smith: That’s what’s going to allow you to go with the Abs. And flows of your business cycles. Right? there’s very few industries out there that have the same number

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Todd Smith: of workflows every single day, or the same volume of work happens on day, daily basis. you know we see it in health care. We see it in education. We see it in financial services. There’s some rhythm of the business that has to occur.

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Todd Smith: you know health care most. you know historically, the the peak of every single health care customer that we had was Tuesdays.

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Todd Smith: because that was just the flow of patients. There was more patients being seen on a Tuesday than any other day of the week, and there’s

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Todd Smith: there’s reasons behind that. It’s people don’t want to go on a Monday. They feel they they feel bad on a on a Monday, but they feel really bad, much worse on a Tuesday. So that’s when they go to the dock, or that’s when they go to the hospital. There’s the flow of the business when it comes to whether you’re talking about retail. Right? You have, you know, peak seasons in retail. You have peak seasons for hospitality.

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Todd Smith: There’s this flow of the business. If you, if you took it and built out for that high point of the year. That high point of the year may only last.

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Todd Smith: you know, a couple of weeks. Why do I over architect. Well, historically, we always put over our architect. There’s an entire architecture firing work out there, the N plus one

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Todd Smith: that took out the elasticity. Right? You are basically over building an over architecting solution to where

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Todd Smith: you are building it towards your worst case scenario.

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Todd Smith: And the problem is the economics of that really kind of drives it down to reduce the cost.

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Todd Smith: Well, if if I’ve architected it for an n plus one scenario in my my baseline or my averages

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Todd Smith: and divided by 2. Where I’m 50% capacity. I’m I’m over paying. So I need to find a way to reduce that cost and elasticity gives us that ability.

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Geremy Meyers: So, so, Todd, I would argue with you that you’re not over buying when you’re thinking about the worst case scenario. That just is what it is, you have to plan for your peak usage. That’s just how the economics of the on-prem work. At least, if you want to have a good solution. Right? So that is your normal. And the hope is the plan. And I guess the promise of cloud is you can buy just as much as you need at any given point in time. That’s the goal.

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Andy Whiteside: Think about this micro level. You you buy what in in plus one. Let’s have a set of reduced hard drives

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Andy Whiteside: you know, rate 5 or whatever it was that that rate 5, or maybe as a rate 0 with with the a mirror of that raid ring.

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Andy Whiteside: and and then you multiply that time. So every time you get to multiply it.

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Andy Whiteside: next thing you know, you got something that you? Yeah, you know exactly what it costs. But wow, you did. You? Did. You need all that?

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Geremy Meyers: Yeah, it’s like by an insurance at that point right?

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Todd Smith: And and those are some very uncomfortable conversations to have with your Cios. Who is your boss? Is, hey? We overspent because we never wanted to have the CIO get a phone call, saying we’re out of capacity. I can’t. I can’t log in

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Todd Smith: because they’re not going to call the It help desk folks when they can’t log in. You know the the the Vp level folks are going to call the CIO directly.

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Andy Whiteside: That’s the CIO that currently exist, or the one that got fired because he over blues, but

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Todd Smith: it could have been both.

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Andy Whiteside: You got my joke here.

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Andy Whiteside: I don’t know. So last last section here is called cost Choose the right Das provider to drive it cost efficiency, are they? Are we talking about the the past side of it, or the I as hosting of the desktop machines. What are we talking about in this section?

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Andy Whiteside: So we talked about a full on that, where it’s just totally one thing you just subscribe to you and pay for it.

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Todd Smith: We’re kind of talking about both of them, right?

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Todd Smith: So it could be a fall on full on to add solution. but it could also be.

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Todd Smith: you know, if I’m just coming up with an infrastructure solution.

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Todd Smith:  that may be something I want to. I want to look into and and look at it within that lens, or I can look at it from the from the overall platform.

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Todd Smith: You know, if I’m using something like salesforce as a platform.

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Todd Smith: I need to factor in some of the other components that go into that, whether it’s the whether it’s the desktop as a service that’s providing me with a full-blown desktop to access that platform as a service. So I I can only access salesforce from a virtual desktop

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Todd Smith: or if I’m looking at it from a pure.

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Todd Smith: a purely infrastructure perspective, saying

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Todd Smith: what all I need to have is a a safe place to go to access just works out there, or I’m only going to use it for my for my components that I’m holding the data for

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Todd Smith: I’m providing my own link into salesforce that comes from my internal data center.

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Todd Smith:  there’s a variety of ways to look at. but understanding those that it. the the principles behind the economics is is going to be critical for for people as they’re making more and more decisions around this.

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Geremy Meyers: So, Andy, now we talk about this all the time where we try to sort through. you know, where does something like an Avd solution versus like

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Geremy Meyers: windows? 365 cloud. PC. You know, one is primarily a license, and you’re managing your own elasticity to manage. Consumption costs versus something like a cloud. PC. Slash windows 3, 65, which is

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Geremy Meyers: per unit more expensive.

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Geremy Meyers: But it’s a it’s a predictable, some cost, right? So do you give

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Geremy Meyers: all of one to everyone, or do you mix it up. I think this is where you you got to understand the right solution right now, I think

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Geremy Meyers: you know, that’s kind of the spirit of the question here, which is, you gotta understand the cost model of whatever provider you’re using and how that plays into kind of what your business objective is. Listen to your

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Geremy Meyers: if your business objective is virtual desktop the dedicated virtual desktop to everyone in the organization.

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Geremy Meyers: Maybe your desk solution involves putting all the workloads on pro, because now your solution just maybe got cheaper than doing that in the cloud dedicated Vdi is the most expensive solution. You can run the cloud. But you gotta understand what your business objectives are versus. You know what the dash provider can give you.

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Andy Whiteside: and what I love about this conversation is because of what we’re doing here is integral every way. You look at it in paths

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Andy Whiteside: staff as A as PC. In the cloud, PC, the cloud in our data center and PC in the cloud. And your data center.

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Andy Whiteside: Zintegra is a effectively and and then succinctly and

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Andy Whiteside: focus on being able to answer yes to all those questions for our customers.

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Andy Whiteside: And then the the thing I factor into. If you’re going to do desk from, say, like a publicly traded company. How well do you trust that company, and how much influence you have on? You know what they’re gonna do next quarter, based on earnings, resource, discord.

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Geremy Meyers: Yeah.

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Andy Whiteside: but that’s how we see the world. And we we see the I opportunity to server to meet our customers where their need is. Not that where we think they going because it

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Andy Whiteside: best benefits us.

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Geremy Meyers: Yep. yep.

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Andy Whiteside: caught any closing remarks

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Todd Smith: I I I think the sorry the economics of cloud need to be a little bit more simpler. So you don’t need a Phd. In quantum mechanics the quantum math to to start figuring out. But it’s same time. It’s

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Todd Smith: you know, the the cost structures are getting

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Todd Smith: a little bit more reasonable. but once again, this is where

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Todd Smith: this is where partners like yourself. really coming into play. Right? Help! Help a customer, figure this stuff out, and and be able to be more. Understand the economics behind it.

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Todd Smith: because the economics are only part of the equation you experience as the other part. and you gotta have them both in in balance.

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Andy Whiteside: Yeah, which I wanted to think of that is no matter what direction you go. Leave yourself options to go the other direction and evaluate it every so

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Todd Smith: absolutely.

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Geremy Meyers: Yep.

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Andy Whiteside: Do you have a close.

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Geremy Meyers: Yeah, I mean, I guess one of the questions that I’ve been in this industry for 25 years now. and you know this is not something as an it professional that I’ve never necessarily had to think about in the past. Right? Is this a skill set

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Geremy Meyers: that your average? You know it professional is gonna have to

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Geremy Meyers: start to learn about and be good at Andy going forward. I was so focused on technology in the past.

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Geremy Meyers: Now, I’m going to have to think about these things. Yes, I think

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Andy Whiteside: you know I I think you’re. I’ve got a 21 year old, son, right? He’s growing up in pas and sass world.

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Andy Whiteside: and I think he’s not going to have to figure that we’re we. We we’ve never figured out the people on this call, and I don’t think anybody’s gonna necessarily figured out it. In theory it becomes easier to figure out, or at least I to whether you control it off. Not another topic we’ve talked about here, but I do think like I mentioned. While it goes, it goes fast and pass. This becomes less and less of a calculation.

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Andy Whiteside: it’s hard to figure out less of an equation and more of a direct formula.

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Geremy Meyers: Yeah.

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Geremy Meyers: I would agree. Okay, yeah.

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Andy Whiteside: Well, guys, I appreciate. You don’t have this conversation. Hopefully, people find a lot of value in it. I I know it’s I feel like it was a therapy session.

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Geremy Meyers: It’s funny how we I know you and Amy. And we’ve talked about this a little for 5 years. We go back and forth. It’s a it’s a topic that has never stopped. I’ll just say that.

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Andy Whiteside: And I would go back to the comments made a long ago. Step one is just getting at. You know what your current costs are on your physical PC world, and I’ve got 2 out of what seems to be 10,000 clients at this point that I’ve that even thought they knew. One of them had a good number. One of them was a Bs number.

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Andy Whiteside: but I’d say this in front of people every week, and they look at me like, well, that’s a good idea. I’m like.

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Andy Whiteside: of course it is. Let’s do that. And then they never do it.

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Geremy Meyers: Yeah, it’s hard is what it is.

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Andy Whiteside: Alright, guys, I appreciate it.

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Geremy Meyers: Alright. So you guys.